Clutch judder

[Peter Douglas W]

My 2000 needed a new clutch, my workshop put it in. Borg and Beck. I drove to England and could hardly drive up the ramp in Rotterdam because of clutch judder. I drove staight to TR Enterprises. The took the car out for a test drive and then had somebody under the car when changing into 1st and reverse gear. He said the bell housing was moving. They decided that the flywheel needed to be skimmed. I took it back to my garage in Germany they said no, it needs new engine mount back and front. They put polyeurothen ones on. No better. TR Enterprises sent a complete clutch set (not a Borg and Beck) out my garage put this second clutch in and skimmed the flywheel having 1st measured it run out in situ. Renewed everything that was wearable. No Improvement. When pullng away in 1st gear bad shudder nearly impossible to drive in a queue. When droping down a cog 4th to 3rd a slight vibration. When driving on the country road a slight vibration. Foot on the clutch and it vanishes immediatly. O/D works beautifully. No judder nothing
So who is a bright boy who can help me.

[johnnydog]

There are quite a few possibles that could cause clutch judder Peter -
What type /make of clutch was fitted? Some clutches are reconditioned as opposed to new. Wear on the splines of the driven plate (if a reconditioned plate), or wear on the splines of the gearbox can cause judder. New B&B give a very heavy pedal with an 'in and out' engagement, whereas the original design of B&B are far superior and have a light progressive pedal feel very similar to a Laycock. There are previous topics on here about B&B clutch differences.
If you search on here, there are topics regarding two very informative American sites ('To Laycock or not to Laycock', and 'Buckeye Triumphs') which are a very interesting and informative read about Triumph clutch issues. One is regarding the bellhousing bolts being reassembled in the incorrect holes which can cause gearbox misalignment, leading to judder.
'Sticky' clutch hydraulics can also cause clutch engagement issues, as can the release bearing. Sometimes they are a very very tight fit on the carrier, and if it hasn't been pressed home fully 'square', then this can possibly cause issues as you describe.
The bellhousing moving is a strange one - did they clarify this further? Do you think the garage was possibly 'trying it on'? Sounds like it to me.....
I'd be asking some questions of the garage, and I would do some Googling re the above websites which may shed some further light on the subject.

[Peter Douglas W]

Bell housing I did not see it but the chap under the car was expecting the problem to be at the back end of the car. When he found nothing he moved forwards and said christ the bell housing is moving. I saw it up on the jack and the bell housing was moving. I cannot remeber if I noted the engine moving. The new B & B has only 4 springs. The Enterprises new one is a ????????? both time all bits were new. Hydraulics checked out. One interesting point the garage man could drive it and had no problem.When I drove it, immediately a problem. I pull away slowly with a few revs and he moves quickly and with more revs. I believe the clutch plates were brand new. I have had on another triumph a Laycock clutch yes it is better but one has got used to driving with the heavy clutch. The garage are being reasonable but they just don't know what to do to solve this problem. Don't forget the original clutch had no problems. I am now going to look at the car and see if the carbs are set up properly. I remember on my TR6 I had Kangeroe petrol at low revs. because the bimetalic strips were not moving together and it had been set up incorrectly.. Hence when idling one carb was richer than the other.

[johnnydog]

Put that way Peter, then your description of the 'bellhousing moving' surely must be better described as the 'engine and gearbox moving', which must be down to worn engine or gearbox mountings, or 'rocking' at idle if the engine isn't set up properly.
I would definitely look at the type of clutch fitted then to find the cause of your 'judder'.

[Peter Douglas W]

The clutch plate from Enterprise is the one they have been using for the last 40 years. As Tom said we have never had a problem so we have just stuck with this plate.
Chris Witor provided the Poly engine and G/B mounts.

[johnnydog]

In the absence of any other problem, then the clutch itself or the operating mechanism must be at fault to cause the judder. Play in the clutch fork possibly due to worn bushes where the cross shaft fits in the bellhousing? Worn slipper pads in the release bearing carrier? I can't really think of anything else assuming it has been installed correctly with their 40 years experience....

[Charles H]

I would suspect that the two larger alignment nuts and bolts have not be refitted in the correct position which means that the gearbox is not correctly aligned on the engine back plate, They are at approximately 4 and 8 o clock from memory.

[johnnydog]

I would suspect that the two larger alignment nuts and bolts have not be refitted in the correct position which means that the gearbox is not correctly aligned on the engine back plate, They are at approximately 4 and 8 o clock from memory.

That's one of the issues outlined in that Buckeye Triumph article I referred to Charles. Glad you have the same train of thought aa myself regarding that!

[Peter Douglas W]

Is there anyway to see these allignment nuts and bolts without dropping the gearbox. I seem to remember using a egg carton to store these bell housing nuts and bolts. Perhaps that is why I did it. Are these, the 2 x 2 bolts part numbes as shown in the parts list WL009 and 132872 ? I wonder if anybody has any photos/ Utube. It is so long ago that I have done a brain reset with all these triumph things. The photos I have show the parts but not the assembley. You never cease to learn. I have a gut feeling, that the plate is not parrallel to the flywheel. This is a coming through, the seat of your pants feeling.

[johnnydog]

Hi Peter,
I take it from your query that you have not read the articles I posted above, otherwise you would not be asking this question about the bolt sizes and how to identify them.......
In the 'To Laycock or not to Laycock' article, there is an section titled 'Update 2003'. In that section, it gives the details you are asking and that Charles has touched on.
To summarise, all but 4 of the bellhousing to engine back plate bolts are 5/16ths. The two holding the start motor are 3/8ths, as are the two others positioned at 4 and 10 o'clock. It also suggests an alternative method to correctly locate the gearbox to the engine back plate by using two 21/64th drill bits in the 4 and 10 o'clock positions as dowels on reassembly.
This may not be your issue Peter but it is easy to check and to rectify, as it can be done from under the car without having to remove the gearbox, although the bellhousing bolts will need slackening slightly to place the 3/8th bolts in their correct positions.
I mentioned the articles in the earlier post Peter as I felt they may assist you with your issue.... As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".