Kienzle time clocks which went in what?

[GrahamF]

I've already posted this on the club triumph forum, but I wondered If I might get more detail here, so I've registered with this forum now, even though I'm really a TR7 Sprint and Dolomite Sprint owner.

Anyway, I've got into repairing the Kienzle clocks fitted to any number of Triumphs, Jaguars, Daimlers, and Fords, etc., because the hands fell off the one in my 73 Dolomite Sprint and I ended up wilt loads of spares from learning how to fix it.

So, I've got a couple of now working clocks that I was told came out of Triumph 2000s or 2500s, but details are a bit thin. So I wondered if anyone here could identify which might have been fitted in which models.

1&2: I know this model was fitted to the Dolomite Sprints of 1973 and for a couple of years after, and I suspect the same clocks were fitted to the 1500s and 1850s too. Note: the boss behind the knob that sets the time is fluted.

3&4: I think this model was fitted to the later Dolomites - possibly from about 1975 or 6 to about 1979. Note: the boss behind the time set knob is plain. It seems that these have a slightly paler yellow second hand than the clock in picture 1. The two second hands don't swap - the drive pins are different diameters. There may be a later clock still, but they say "QUARTZ" not "KIENZLE" on the face and mount with a U bracket.

It's been suggested that the colour difference in the second hands is due to fading, but I've not seen an early clock, like in pics 1&2, that was paler or a later one, like in pics 3&4, that was darker. So I think Kienzle used a different colour on the two different hands. The quartz ones I've not shown had a third type of second hand, and that was back to a darker yellow.

5&6 I know this model was fitted to the S3 E Type and Daimler DS 420.In most cases, they have 8015 inked on the back, and often another 4-digit number as well. I've been told the other is a date code, but if it is, I can't decrypt it. So I don't have any dates, but I think it's more the late 60s than the early 70s. Note: there is no boss, and no second hand and an all black bezel. There is a very similar model 8014 that seems to have been fitted to Mk2 Cortina 1600E and Twin Cams, but that lights up blue, and it's not easy to swap the filters. Neither does it work that well if you put a green LED in one, because the LEDs have some blue in their output, and the blue filter enhances that to give a distinct blue tinge.

Also, if anyone has any broken ones, I'm always interested.

Graham

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[GrahamF]

Just an extra note: While the first two clocks in the previous post look the same from the front, they are very different inside.

The first is a clockwork jewelled escapement that is electrically wound using a solenoid and set of points that close just before the spring winds down. When that happens the solenoid kicks the points open and winds the spring, keeping the clock going. That mechanism is called a remontoire. The escapement is a bit plastic, and not quite as good as the previous Kienzle model, as the third clock shown is, which was mostly metal. But the previous model don't have a second hand.

The second clock is a horrible, cheap and nasty, transistorized, electromagnetic escapement. It has a pair of plastic (nylon I think) gears that serve as a bevel gear set and the escape wheel. They are far too weak, and wear, when the clock just stops. The armature has plain bearings that wear if the escape-bevel set don't. That lets the magnets on the armature touch the driving coils and the clock stops. The magnets are held onto the armature by a combination their magnetism and a glue that has not stood the test of time. When the glue stops holding the magnets, they can move on the armature for a bigish bump, and change the rate of the clock, often beyond what the tensioner on the hair-spring can compensate for. I don't like these clocks.

Graham

[johnnydog]

Hi Graham,
In the Mk2, early cars PFL cars had Smiths clocks which had the time keeping, and finger adjustment at the bottom of the face, and then later Keinzle clocks had just the central adjustment button. FL cars then went onto the squarer type of digits matching the speedo, and they had a predominant black bezel but with the thin chromed edge around the outer edge.
Pics 1, 2 and 3 are from the FL 2000 / 2500 TC and S
Pics 4 and 5 are from a PFL 2.5PI because of the completely black bezel. 2000's had a chrome bezel.
There were several different clocks fitted to PFL models depending on age / era, whereas FL models appeared to just have the one type.

[johnnydog]

You seem to be very clued up and know you way round the Triumph clocks BTW - I'm impressed.....

[GrahamF]

"2000's had a chrome bezel." is that with the same face, with the full circle and the full set of numbers (it's very like the face on one of the Smiths round clocks); just different in the bezel? That could be the model 8012 I've been looking for the details of and never seen - could make one tho.

I've learned a lot in fixing these over the last couple of years (had to do something in lockdown). Not just triumphs but the other lot's clocks as well.

Graham

[johnnydog]

Yes, PFL cars had the same clocks for each specific model era, but 2000s had a full chrome bezel, and the 2.5PI had a full matt black bezel.

[GrahamF]

Both with green backlight filters?

I've seen enough 8015s with the all black bezel and green filter, and 8013s with the chrome bezel and blue filter. I've also seen enough of the model 8011 from the Mk1 Escorts and Mk2 Cortinas, with a less nice face (don't ask about the legs), black and chrome bezel and blue filter. But nothing with an all chrome bezel and green filter.

So I'm guessing they should have 8012 inked on the back.

Graham

[johnnydog]

The clocks I am referring to (and the spares I have) are both the ones fitted to the PFL model eras 2000 and 2.5PI, and the FL 2000 and 2500. The spares I have are all from previously scrapped models of these ranges.
I didn't quite go into the depths of colours of backlights.....just aware of the visual differences in the various models of the Triumph 2000 2.5 2500 range! As regards Fords etc...

[GrahamF]

It's a problem that people sell model 8014s from Fords, which have a black bezel but a blue filter, as being for Triumphs, Daimlers (DS420), and Jags (S3 E-type), which all want 8015s with a green filter.

It's possible to swap the blue filter in an 8014 for a green one. But the only other one (than one from an 8015) that fits easily is from one of the clocks shown in pics 1 & 2. And it's a bit of mucking about, because the hands have to come off to do it, and if you lever the hands off an 8014 with a couple of screwdrivers on the front of the case, there's a significant risk the main drive pin will come out with the minute hand attached. And getting that back in is a nightmare. It's taken me a while to sort out the right tools to do this sort of job, and occasionally having to sweep up the disasters.

Graham

[GrahamF]

The spares I have are all from previously scrapped models of these ranges.

Does that include any that don't work?

Now I have the tools and spares, I can fix most of the clockwork ones. Some models aren't worth much even fixed, but some are worth repairing.

The transistorized electromagnetic ones are more difficult, and the best I can do is sometimes make one that works from three or four that don't. But because I think they are crap, I don't much like to sell the ones I can get working. So they mostly get stripped for spares for the similar looking clockwork ones - and twice now parts to convert a later Kienzle quartz clock to look like an early Dolomite one (pics 1&2 above). I'm currently working on a quartz clock that will look like the one in picture 5, but will actually keep time to a few minutes a year.

Graham