Kienzle time clocks which went in what?

[torque2me]

Graham,

What's your location in case we have clocks to "donate" or need a look at?

I take it you are a member of the Dolomite club. If so, I'll PM you as I need a bit of advice.

regards,

Kev

[GrahamF]

I'm in Saint Annes on the Sea, (too) near Blackpool (and too far from York). Yes I'm a Dolomite Club member.

Graham

[torque2me]

I'm in Saint Annes on the Sea, (too) near Blackpool (and too far from York). Yes I'm a Dolomite Club member.

Graham

Right, Standerwyck territory! Even further from Hatfield
I'll pm you soon.

Kev

[GrahamF]

I have three of these, one beyond repair in bits, one in the car that occasionally works and another inoperative (from memory). Would you like to have a go at making one (or two) out of these if i send them all to you to see if you can get one to work.

Three clocks arrived this lunchtime: two Smiths and a Kienzle. I tried them all, noting the Smiths ones have the spades the other way around, with the small spade for power and the large one for earth. I even remembered how you're supposed to start the Smiths clocks. None seemed to run, so I took them apart.

Both the Smith ones are the electromagnetic escapement type, not electrically wound (remontoire) clockwork ones. They don't appear to have any transistors inside, like the EM Kienzle ones I dislike so much do. But there's a deal more plastic gearing inside than the Kienzle ones. While I have taken several Kienzle EM ones apart and made one goodish one, I don't think it's likely I could get these Smiths escapements back together, even if I got one good set of parts. And, in both cases, the problem seems to be that the main balance wheel has come off its jewelled bearings. One of them clocks may have been just hanging on, till I went to see how much play there was in it. But it was far too loose, even if it hadn't been dislodged before. I suspect that either the bottom bearing that I can't see or the shaft for the balance wheel has worn too much. The Kienzle clockwork ones have one of the jewelled bearings on a sprung plate with a jack screw adjustment - they have several other adjustments in the escapement. So it's sometimes possible to get them to run reliably again when they've worn a bit and started to stop. But I can't see any bearing adjustment in the Smiths ones. And even with the Kienzle clockwork ones, once the balance wheel has lost its bearings, there's no turning back (I do so love a bad pun). I can take them apart...

So I reckon the Smiths ones are dead. I also don't see much opportunity to fix others of these clocks. I reckon it takes proper watchmakers skills. And that probably makes them too expensive. There might be some opportunity to use the front on one of them Luch clocks from Belarus and make quartz clocks that look right. I was toying with making something that looks a bit like one of the FL car clocks. This is as far as I've got to now, next to one of the Smiths. The time set knob looks like it should line up, I think.

The Kienzle one is a bit more interesting. Actually it surprised me a bit. It is a remontoire clockwork one that should go clunk every two or three minutes. But what seems odd to me is that it's got a blue backlight filter, where all the other Triumph ones I've seen have green ones. It's just possible to make out the model number on the back - 8013 -, which is the same model fitted to some of the Mk2 Cortinas - 1600E and, perhaps, the twin-cam. So if all the 2000/2500s have green instrument lights, I'd suspect this is a ringer from a Ford or such.

As to the clock itself, it doesn't run, but I'm sure I can get it going again. The internal thermal fuse has gone. It's been repaired with a bit of thin strand copper wire, but that's not worked. So I pulled that wire out, and shorted round the blown infernal fuse with a 12v live, the solenoid kicked the points open and, with a bit of encouragement, the escapement worked. So I gave it a clean and lube job, and it seems to run fine when wound up manually.

However...

The pin bearing on the flywheel that the solenoid kicks to wind the remontoire spring is in a very poor state, and the flywheel flops about a lot. So it's likely the solenoid won't kick it far, and the clock will be re-winding far more often than is normal. I've had them run for as little as 20 seconds between clunks when that bearing has gone slack It may also be prone to stopping before the points close, till it's given a good shake. Also, the bezel has already been prised off and is split in several places.

But still, the Kienzle clock is not entirely junk if you want it fixed: I have a spare remontoire unit that should get it going. That's off one where the balance wheel fell off its bearings. I've also got bezels. I have one good chrome bezel that will fit. I was going to use for a late P5 clock, but I've got black ones that might make it right for a P5B.

Putting a black bezel on this 8013 effectively makes it into a model 8014 clock, as were also fitted to Ford Cortinas, etc. But I've about 4 of them waiting for me to get round to tarting up to put on eBay. I could fit a black bezel and a green filter from the Kienzle electromagnetic clocks - it takes a bit of work to adapt that filter, but it's just filing plastic. That effectively turns it into a model 8015 clock, which Jonnydog wrote was fitted to the PFL 2.5PIs (and the S3 E-type and Daimler DS420).

But better than that, I've got a Kienzle quartz movement clock from a late Dolomite that's been adapted to look like an 8015, but one that keeps time. I could fit a chrome bezel to that, but it has to stay a green backlight filter. That kind of makes it doubly unique - a quartz clock that actually looks like an 8015, but one with a chrome bezel.

Graham

[Charles H]

Many thanks to Graham, we can now say with certainty that the pre facelift Mk2 cars had clocks with a blue backlight like the Jaguar. Classy of course. I now have a fully working Smiths clock with a black bezel back in my PI. Fantastic!

[GrahamF]

Many thanks to Graham, we can now say with certainty that the pre facelift Mk2 cars had clocks with a blue backlight like the Jaguar.

Not quite. If I have it right, the ones with the all chrome bezel do light up blue, but are the same Kienzle model 8013 clocks as fitted to (at least some of) the Mk2 Cortina 1600e or Lotus twin cam ones.

I think that all the all black bezel ones fitted to Triumph 2500s light-up green and are the same model 8015 as the S3 E-type clocks (and the DS420 hearse).

But, just to confuse everyone, there is a model 8014 clock fitted to some Ford Cortinas that looks exactly the same as the E-type/2500 one, i.e. all black paint on a brass bezel, but which lights up blue. They are more common than the green-lit 8015s, and some of the less scrupulous on eBay sell them as Jag clocks. But even fitted with a green LED, they aren't ever quite the right backlight colour. But if anyone has a model 8014, black bezel, blue backlight clock fitted, might it be one swapped from a Ford?

Graham

[johnfrancis898]

Hi Graham
Hi have a couple of the Keinzle clocks thanked looking at. Would you be interested in having a go at them. PM me if you are. Thanks.