Strut shims

[johnfrancis898]

Have had mixed reviews on this and it would appear that the FL models had shims put at the spacer side as well as the opposite side. Annoying that none of the manuals mention anything on this but there must be some notes on it out there?. I was at Chris Witors on Friday and asked him and he was uncertain but thought the shims went on the opposite side to the spacer on early Mk2 models but was unsure about FL models. However 2 people with FL models have confirmed to me that they have shims fitted exactly as I do. So as my assembly starts today I am going to go as it was. Once I have it somewhere near I will go to my tyre man and get him to set it up accurately. He is an ‘old school’ independent and uses the old method. He set it all up when I had 4 new tyres fitted and I’ve done about 3k on them with even ware all round. Have also consulted a couple of my old MG pals and they have used the Trackrite with good results so may be tempted to invest in one. Thank you Johnnydog for the utube link. Very interesting.

[johnnydog]

I take the point that the wheels should have a zero toe-in when moving, and the usual 1/8" toe-in static setting makes an allowance for the wheels tending to splay slightly when moving, as all the minute play in steering joints and suspension combines to force the wheels outwards very slightly. But it's only an approximation - the actual variation in splay will depend on speed, acceleration or braking, weight in the car altering the suspension height, and of course direction of travel. That's why ideally tracking should be carried out with a normal passenger load and the car should come to a halt for testing in the forwards direction and without sharp braking.

But I still dispute that the two front wheels can have independently adjustable tracking. They are connected by a single solid track rod, or a solid straight-through connection through the steering rack. You alter the tracking by lengthening or shortening that rod. It alters both wheels. Even if you held one of them still so that winding the rod only turned the other wheel, then as soon as you moved off the car would adopt an average course, and the result would have been that you had inevitably adjusted both wheels.

Imagine an extreme example - set one wheel straight ahead and the other at 2" toe-in. Then when you drive a short distance you would find that both wheels were pointing inwards by 1". They turn by caster action and adopt the average compromise position.

Surely that is precisely why you would use the Trakrite gauge on each front wheel in turn to get the rolling setting as 'zero'. If you just adjusted one wheel only, as you say, the steering would tend to compensate and in effect move to balance the degree of toe between the two wheels, and in turn throw the steering wheel position out. But if both fronts were set equally at a rolling 'zero' AND the steering rack was centralised beforehand along with the steering wheel correctly repositioned as needed before carrying out the adjustments, surely you would get an optimum setting. This presumes of course that the camber is correct (if the camber angle is incorrect this also throws the toe out), and there is no play in the track rod ends, top suspension mounts, track control arms , tie bars or ball joints. The movement or settling position of these components when replaced or as new is surely what is taken into consideration for a 'zero' rolling reading - the rolling position of the front wheels on a straight level road with one person and half a tank (is it?) of fuel?

[Clifford Pope]

"If you just adjusted one wheel only, . . . . . if both fronts were set equally "

That's what I don't understand. On a simple traditional steering set up there is a single track rod connecting the two wheels. If you twist that rod then the opposing threads at each end wind the two wheels so that they track in or track out. There is no such thing as "just adjusting one wheel only". Tracking by definition means that the two wheels have a fixed relationship between each other.

A rack and pinion system is no different in basic principle.

[johnnydog]

I don't see really what there is not to understand.
There isn't a single track rod on the Triumph - there's two, which can be turned individually (as you must know) to make adjustments of the track rod end.
If you felt so inclined theoretically you could undo the lock nut on one track rod and then wind that track rod in or out of that track rod end to your hearts content. Which would grossly affect the tracking, but you have only adjusted one side, but it would effectively affect both sides on the road. The side you hadn't altered would still be correct in relation to the centralised rack and steering wheel position.
On the Triumph (as you surely know), the two track rods are at either end of the steering rack, with an adjustable rack rod end on each track rod that connects to each hub knuckle. The rack body itself is fixed. If the inner steering shaft is kept in its centralised position, and each track rod end is adjusted independently to alter the toe of that particular wheel to the straight ahead position or zero degrees toe if using the Trakrite, or 1/8" toe in with the square retangular box with string method.
If you adjusted one side only to its correct setting but the other was set incorrectly, then the steering would try to 'centralise' itself on the road which would probably cause a vague steering feel and likely pulling to one side, and wearing the tyres relatively quickly. But if both fronts are set independently of each other to the correct setting with the rack centralised etc etc.
I'm sure your method of doing any tracking / wheel alignment adjustments would be read with great interest if you could explain....
Or you are just playing devils advocate...?

[Clifford Pope]

I think you are confusing tracking with centralising the steering.

[johnnydog]

I think you have 'played me' enough on this topic Clifford (although you're not really Clifford...). From your past posts in other topics, you are not really as dumb as you are making out on this one, so I'm leaving it at that. I've had positive messages sent regarding this topic from Register members away from the forum, and perhaps I have been a little lax to cotton on, but was only trying to offer another member the result of my experiences, whether they are right or wrong, but they have worked for me.
I would have possibly expected this on the Facebook discussion pages, not the Forum....
Nuff said.

[johnfrancis898]

Clifford you seem to be making a bit of a meal of this. My initial enquiry on here was to ask about shims. I have today fitted everything back together with the shims as they were found. Whilst your comments are appreciated, noted and understood all that is required at the end of the day is that all four wheels are following in a straight line at the correct angle so that even tyre ware and good road holding is achieved. Having made a few enquiries with various other friends and acquaintances in the motoring world most of them speak well of the Trackrite for getting tracking, wheel alignment or whatever you want to call it near enough as that’s what most of us old guys want so we can have a safe and enjoyable cruise out in our old bangers. If I was considering taking on F1 drivers at Silverstone this year I may well take on board some your comments. Thanks to all of you who have offered advice on this. As Johnydog says - Nuff said.

[Clifford Pope]

"speak well of the Trackrite for getting tracking, wheel alignment or whatever you want to call it"

That is precisely my point - wheel alignment is not tracking, which I seem at last to have got through!

Anyway, nuff said. My apologies to anyone I have irritated.

[johnfrancis898]

Further to my previous post on these shim washers I have got everything back together and it would appear the shim washers only fit on the lower strut bolts, the 3/8 or 9/16 head ones. They will not fit the upper bolts. I have fitted the spacer on the front upper bolt. It would appear that it’s mainly the rear one that requires the most shims. One strange thing is that when refitting the brake calipers I found that they were touching the disc in the inner edge. I am rechecking the mating surfaces for imperfections and paint. I also fitted new stone guards which are stainless steel and these are slightly thicker gauge than the old ones. Will have another go tomorrow. It’s strange there are no reference to any of these shim washers in any of the manuals.

[johnfrancis898]

I am pleased to report my front suspension rebuild is finally complete. Regarding the shim washers to the lower front struts some studying of the book and a look at the dimensions the camber angle is supposed to be 3/4 deg negative. Taking this into account and the short distance between the top and bottom bolts of the strut, I fitted 1 10thou washer and 2 4thou washers to each lower strut both sides. Assembly went well and a trip to my local tyre guy (an independent with 50 yrs experience) he adjusted the tracking and checked all the wheel alignment. Results were ‘good enough’ in his opinion and the camber angle came out 0.62 neg. So overall a good result. A drive out yesterday and today covering just over 100 miles was absolutely perfect. A big difference to road holding, comfort and steering. Now on to the rear………