Sump Guard

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leesellars
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Sump Guard

#1 Post by leesellars » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:04 pm

Hello Friends

I am after drawings of a Sump guard and gear box guard for my Rally car. Or maybe someone has one :?:
Any suggestions

Lee
Triumph Mk2 PI 1975
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TedTaylor
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Re: Sump Guard

#2 Post by TedTaylor » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:42 pm

Have you read Steve Knight's book? I think he still has copies if you don't have one.

He advocates that the front suspension cross member is so substantial it can take most heavy knocks, and that simply having a plate attached to this and going under the sump will suffice. Saves weight too.

Ted
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Re: Sump Guard

#3 Post by leesellars » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Hello Ted

Is there any drawings available from the works cars? I would like to get these done before my engine goes in. I not building a replica as you all know but I would like to be as close as possible. I have to think on how to mount as it may have to be removed ASAP.

Lee
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Re: Sump Guard

#4 Post by TedTaylor » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:30 pm

Got a good front shot of EHP 78C from the 'Motor' article 'Not For Sale' which shows the front of the sump guard and would give an idea of what they did. Also Robson's book on The Works Triumphs has pictures but not as good as this one but suggests the same thing was used on all Mk1s.

I would suspect it simply passes under the suspension sub frame (bolts to it?) and passes under the engine to provide protection back to the gearbox.

I'll e-mail you a copy of this article in case it helps.

Ted
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Re: Sump Guard

#5 Post by Alec » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:01 am

Hello Ted,

"He advocates that the front suspension cross member is so substantial it can take most heavy knocks, and that simply having a plate attached to this and going under the sump will suffice. Saves weight too."

I think that idea is flawed on a couple of counts. One is that a full sump guard will be better at letting the car skate over rather than dig into any obstruction. The second is that the suspension is attached to the subframe, and yes it is substantial, but will move with repeated heavy knocks, tending to twist and probably bend so may well upset the geometry?
In other words, the forces on a full sump guard, that curves up at the front is mainly in a vertical plane, whereas the forces in the shorter version is much more on a horizontal plane and the car is weaker in that direction. Is a few kilos of extra weight going to make that much difference on an already heavy car?

Alec
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Re: Sump Guard

#6 Post by TedTaylor » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:04 am

Sorry Alec I must disagree and keep with what Steve says. After all he has had massive experience in rallying a Mk1 in converted 2.5PI specification going back over 20 years when we were both active in the HRCR.

The substantial plate formed by the guard going under the sump and back to a rear mounting will spread loads along the subframe distributing the shock loading incurred at a single point. Distortion of the subframe therefor will be highly unlikely and Steve in all his experience would not have suggested it if he had not found it worked. He also makes the point that keeping weight off the front of the car a little helps handling.

Also there is the plate to act as a skid under the car though the real advantage of it is to prevent stones being thrown up to damage the sump and gearbox.

Historic rallies are not the 'bottom scrapers' and shell/engine destroyers that were experienced in the 1970s. I well remember how we used to watch the RAC going through the Forest of Dean and you would hear the engine and then through the trees see a shower of sparks (almost continuous) and the graunch as the sump guard would be bottoming on the track almost continuously. This does not happen in historic rallying today.

I am sure if Steve had found a need of greater protection in his decades of historic rallying in Triumphs he would not have made this suggestion in his book. Mind you I only took a small comment from it and really people who are interested in preparing cars for competition would be well advised to get a copy which Steve had published himself - contact him on sknight@uk2.net

Ted
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Re: Sump Guard

#7 Post by Alec » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:09 pm

Hello Ted,

we'll have to disagree then. While you say that Steve has the benefit of running such a system without a problem, I do have a life time of engineering experience and believe if you follow the fundamentals then that is generally the best way?

You pay your money and you take your choice. :-)

Alec
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Re: Sump Guard

#8 Post by TedTaylor » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:23 pm

Hi Alec

I also have spent most of my life involved with design and development in a variety of fields and while keeping to basic principles is usually a good idea, when something works for a particular application in practice that is enough.

Actually the point of stress due to impact on one point of the sub frame would be dissipated through the whole width (length?) of the subframe where the sheet of thick aluminium is bolted to it, and back to where it is bolted either to the engine or a mounting point on the body depending upon the chosen mounting point.

As you say let us agree to disagree. :)

Ted
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Re: Sump Guard

#9 Post by Alec » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:01 am

Hello Ted,

perhaps you would clarify how this guard is installed? Is the leading edge of the guard going to impact the ground, or does the supplementary guard you refer to run from the front valance to the guard? If so this would remove a lot of the impact, otherwise I stand by my comment.
Incidentally, if you have the opportunity, look at the Jaguar Mk2 for really substantial subframe, it is about three times the width of the Triumph's and also attaches to the foremost structural member of the car's frame.

Alec
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Re: Sump Guard

#10 Post by leesellars » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:25 am

Hello Ted

Still struggleing with the emails. Can you post the photo on here or send the photo as an attachment to my email address please.

Lee
Triumph Mk2 PI 1975
Triumph TR6 PI 1973

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